Promises and Secrets

Promises and SecretsPromises and Secrets

A website for those not afraid to examine their beliefs, compare them to the real world, and make sure they fit.



L,G,B,T, and Q "believers"

VIEWPOINT



Should Christians associate with any "believer" who overtly claims the life of LGBTQ?

FACT



LGBTQ members who also claim to be Christians defy the word of God


BLUE VIEWPOINT



Regardless of what we hear in the media and from pastors and churches who have taken it upon themselves to preach against the word of God, this must be said out loud:

No one can be a Christian and also be a practicing member of the LGBTQ community.

Even the statement in the other direction is true:

No one who is a practicing member of the LGBTQ community can also be a Christian.

What do these statements mean? Being a Christian means that you not only believe that Jesus is real, but believe that he means what He says, and that you also follow His rules. Yep, rules. His rules are also the rules of His Father in Heaven - God. Those rules clearly prohibit any kind of sexual immorality. Hence, the statement: "You cannot be Christian and practice in the LGBTQ community at the same time." Oh, you can claim to be a Christian, but you are not.

"How can you say that, since we are all sinners?"

This statement has surely alienated the LGBTQ community and probably more than half of the Christian community at the same time. People are shouting "You must love your neighbor as yourself!", or "You can love Christ and be gay at the same time!", or "I'm gay and I believe in Jesus!" or "You're a bigot, the Bible doesn't say that!" Yes, it does. See Lev 18:22
Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

, Lev 20:13
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

, Romans 1:26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

, 1 Cor 5:11-13
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked person from among you." (NIV)

and 1 Cor 6:9
9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.(NIV)

, 1 Tim 1:8-11
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers - and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

, Jude verse 7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

.

Of course, by some of these definitions, many of us fit into the category of those who should be avoided because of the terms "greedy" and "sexually immoral". Remember what John said in 1 John 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

? So, are general greed and sexual immorality sins that lead to death? Who knows for sure? But the word of God is very clear regarding the sexual immorality of practicing homosexuality. In the Old Testament, it called for the death of both men involved (Lev 20:13
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (NIV)

), and to think that we no longer have to worry about this in the New Covenant is just brazen fist-shaking at God. Each of us will have to determine how we will act based on the type and severity of the sins we commit. However, we should be careful not to let our hearts (human nature) rule our common sense. If God says it, I believe it.

"How do I fix it if God made me that way?"

There is at least one verse where Paul explains how we should handle those thoughts that make us do things against the will of God. This includes thoughts blaming the condition of being homosexual on God ("He made me this way!"). In 2 Cor 10:4-5
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. (emphasis mine)

he admonishes us to oppose the arguments of the world (and the flesh) by fighting against the natural thoughts (claiming that God made them homosexual) and bring them into obedience to the Lord. You can't beat it out of someone (verse 4
4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

), they have to overcome it themselves (verse 5
5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God

). This applies to all of us with our various issues, not just homosexuals. Once a homosexual person learns to do that for his or her issue, they can then help others to know how to do the same (verse 6
6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.

). That is Paul's message.

Again, what does it mean to "believe" in Jesus?

By the definition given by Paul above, you may claim to "believe" in Jesus, and you may be following the commands of God regarding what to do (keep the Sabbath, honor your parents, love God, love your neighbor, etc.). However, our instructions include obedience regarding what He said not to do (Lev 20:13
If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (NIV)

, Romans 1:26-27
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. (NIV)

) as well. If you accept these practices clearly rejected by God, and those who practice them, then you don't really "believe" in the real Jesus or His Father. Can you really think that He won't mind if you lean "on your own understanding"? (Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
    and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
    and he will make your paths straight.

)

And remember, the passage in 1 Cor 5:12-13
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked person from among you." (NIV)

tells us to let God sort out those sinners outside the Christian community, but we are to judge those inside the community who "claim" to believe but do not align themselves with God and His commands. Just what is it that they are claiming to believe, anyway? According to God, you should not associate with a sexually immoral person. You should expel the person from among your congregation.

Some denominations defy the will of God

Now that all the shouting has died down a little, let's look at a list of those who try to include gays in their congregations, not only as members, but as ministers and pastors as well (these are links to their websites, so don't click on them if you don't want to go there):

United Church of Christ
Episcopal Church
Evangelical Lutheran Chruch in America
Presbyterian Church (USA)
Calvary Baptist Church

Paul, in Corinthians, does not say you should hate LGBTQ people any more than you should hate the man who has his father's wife. That man was sexually immoral as well, just with the opposite sex. However, Paul did say that as long as they claim to be brothers in the faith but keep practices that deny the faith, you should not associate with them - AT ALL! You can only accept them back into the Christian fold once they renounce their sin.

What do you believe?

This is not to say that you can't be gay and go to church, or that you can't be gay and pray. Some very good friends of mine are now or have been gay at one time, and claim to have been Christian at the time. However, if you claim to be a Christian and continue to practice the sin openly in a congregation, you are defying the command of God, and by definition cannot believe in the Word of God, Jesus, or God Himself. That defiance means that the congregation cannot condone your presence - in fact, must expel you from among them or lose their own standing with God.

No one who understands Paul, and believes he is teaching the will of God, will be attending such a church. And, if we are to understand Paul correctly, neither would Jesus. If fact, if anyone in your church knows you are practicing and allows it to continue, then they will be under the same condemnation as the immoral person under judgment. Yes, judgment, as in 1 Cor 5:3
For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

.

And the denominations who accept those gays who defiantly practice?

From this point of view, what happens to all the members of the churches listed in the box above who are aware of the church's accepting position on homosexuality? Do we have any precedents in the Bible on what will happen to them?

Well, there is a "little known" set of verses in Genesis chapter 19 that describes this situation perfectly. While all the men in Gomorrah wanted to have relations with the two "men" who came to visit Lot, we see that those two men (angels) were sent there to get Lot to leave the city. Why? Because the whole city was homosexual and sexually immoral. And, if Lot stayed, he would be destroyed along with the rest of the people because of the method God was going to use against them. Even Lot's wife looked back in regret, and what happened to her just for that longing? This is similar to God sending Noah out in the Ark so he would not be destroyed with the rest of the world.

"But wait, there's more"

Actually, the story includes more details that you never seem to hear in the sermons or discussions about Sodom and Gomorrah. Lot actually lost half of his family in this episode. If you review Gen 19:14
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

, you will notice that he had two sons-in-law who had promised to marry his daughters. As far as we know, these two were not sexually immoral, they just didn't mind living among it.

Back then, a promise to marry was considered the same as marriage, just without the consummation for a year. But, what happened to the two sons-in-law? Since they did not take the word of the Lord seriously, they were destroyed along with the rest of the people in the city. We should take the word of the Lord seriously.

Just being practical here

Don't take this wrong. The point here is not a discussion of the psychology of homosexuality, causes, sanity of the practicioner, hate or anything like that. There is a very real problem with the word of God here, and it seems to be accepted more and more in the world, and in the churches who claim to follow God. We can love them, as those in the Corinthian church loved the man who had his father's wife - but it was not right for them to condone the practice. Neither should we.

So, what do we take away from this? The LGBTQ community thumbs its nose at God's rules, but some of them still claim that they can practice the sin of homosexuality and remain in the will of God. They still expect Jesus to save them. Unless Paul is lying to us, that salvation cannot happen without repentence and leaving the life of sin (remember John 8:11
11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

?). Repentence does not mean, "I'm sorry that You don't like it, but I am going to do it anyway." There must be consequences of disobedience. And anyone who wants to hang around with those who defy God will have to suffer those same consequences. Those who truly believe in God will not knowingly associate with those who refuse to do so.

Disagree? Find an error? Contact us at glenjjr@gmail.com and give us your view.

Contact Us | Back to Top



contact


YELLOW VIEWPOINT



Tell us your side.